As an ex leader - with the same permits as the editor of this story - it's unfathomable why anyone would today volunteer to be a scout leader.

The scout association has become obsessed with box ticking. There's no common sense anymore. I know of leaders who have fulfilled their training, got the certificate and are ' qualified ' to take young people to high and remote places. I wouldn't trust them with my cat.

A few years back they started a policy of youth led scouting - for all the right reasons. However, you have adults in senior position with no life experience. They've probably never had children; they've probably not had to deal with awkward leaders and parents in their careers. They just don't have the skills - and yet it's this type of person who is ultimately signing off the activities.

Get back to basics - encourage those with experience to remain in the organisation and carefully manage those who perhaps need to learn a bit more.

As another ex-Scout leader (25+ years ago) I held qualifications in Kayaking (BCU/WCA Senior Instructor), sailing, (RYA Instructor), and Scout Mountain Leadership qualifications. To support these, I held (and had to renew regularly) a first aid certificate and lifesaving qualification. I also had a full time job, and spent about 30 hours a week working with Scouts. I was a volunteer for this - payment for all my time came out of my own pocket.

Scouting was a very expensive hobby, as it still is for most leaders.

Working with children was a huge reward. And in spite of all the training, kids (mainly boys at that time) still did things and accidents happened, and we occasionally had to take kids to hospital. And in spite of this, I'm pretty sure that our parents had the attitude of "kids will be kids" and "accidents happen".

But now? Obviously this event is a tragedy, and I'm sure that the leaders involved feel that too, but this ruling makes it sound like those leaders actually pushed Ben to his death.

And the reports that I've found so far, after an inquest lasting TWO MONTHS, seem to mainly consist of people (generally police), stating as a fact, that a risk assessment would have saved Ben's life.

I'm at the other end of the country from the Great Orme, but I'm still on the Welsh Coastal Path - much of which runs along unfenced clifftop edges.

From what I can see, the Great Orme has a visitor's centre, and a dry ski slope. There's even a children's play centre at the cafe.

Yet apparently, a risk assessment needs to be done to visit this area. How many parents take their children up there without doing this? Why has the council not fenced it all off, and put warning signs everywhere?

I wonder if the assistant coroner, Mr Pojur, has considered in his risk assessment, that this ruling may cause the resignation of thousands of Scout leaders, and the closure of almost every scout group in the country?

I know that I wouldn't serve in this climate! And I certainly wouldn't recommend Scouting to anybody looking to a way to "give back" to the country.

The benefits of introducing young people to mountain environments are extensive, encompassing physical and mental well-being, the acquisition of practical skills, and personal and social development. It is essential to acknowledge the associated risks, but it is crucial to strike a balance that ensures the benefits are neither minimized nor overlooked, and the inherent capabilities of young individuals to manage these risks are not underestimated.

I believe that young people require both protection and opportunities. However, there is a genuine concern that misinterpretations of risk may lead to an array of restrictions aimed at shielding them, whether imposed by overzealous parents, governing policies, or those responsible for risk assessment. Such an approach inadvertently hampers young people from encountering and learning to manage risks, preventing them from grasping the essential skill of evaluating and responding to challenges. Society’s prevention of such experiences ultimately hinders young people from developing a genuine understanding of risk.

@Wise old owl
You are completely correct and I find it really sad that your common sense approach would be viewed as old fashioned and therefore worthless in today's world.

Looking back over the years I find it impossible to pinpoint how or when things in general got into the utter mess it seems to be in these days.

@wise old owl - As a current scout leader with a hillwalking permit, I respectfully disagree on the risk assessment.

We are trusted with other people's children, and we have a responsibility to take care of them. We need to be aware of the risks and what we can do to realistically manage them.

That means we need to consider everything we do, and what we can do to reduce the chances of something going wrong, and to minimise the impact should it go wrong.

Would it have made a difference? maybe not, but it just might if they had considered group separation a little more carefully, or if they had been aware of the risk of a fall and briefed the group better.

@Appaled old owl - As a current scout leader with a hillwalking permit, I respectfully disagree on the risk assessment.

We are trusted with other people's children, and we have a responsibility to take care of them. We need to be aware of the risks and what we can do to realistically manage them.

That means we need to consider everything we do, and what we can do to reduce the chances of something going wrong, and to minimise the impact should it go wrong.

Would it have made a difference? maybe not, but it just might if they had considered group separation a little more carefully, or if they had been aware of the risk of a fall and briefed the group better.

@ESL & DESC.... You've just proven the point that the original posters were making.

The scout association needs to get away from box ticking exercises and concentrate more on the quality of volunteers (maturity, experience) that have responsibility for such events.

As a DESC you will have oversight over many different Risk Assessments from many different groups. The quality of those assessments will vary greatly; how many of them have been downloaded from 3rd party sites and then ignored? How many are created and then never looked at again? How many are to the level required? How many have too much detail? These are rhetorical questions.

The process of having risk assessments approved by a DESC or DC is also a complete waste of time.

I'm surprised to see you are both an ESL and a DESC too. Surely that is some sort of conflict of interest.

Have a look up and down the country. Adults are leaving in droves due to poor management from both the national body and also at a local district and county level.
It's no good starting up new sections (Squirrels) when they cannot manage the older sections. The whole thing has just become a toddlers playgroup - without the profit.

Have to say I agree with Wise Old Owl on this one.

The Scout Association has changed massively in the 35 years I've been involved.

Creating Risk Assessments for the sake of it, which are produced, signed off and never looked at again by wholly incompetent adults is far more dangerous than having a competent leader with the experience to know what they're doing.

When I joined Scouting the adults involved were from a much broader background. Not only this they were 'older' adults - Scouting has moved to be much more Youth Shaped meaning its demographic has shifted. There are senior 'leaders' in my part of Scouting who are about 19-20 - lovely people but we're asking far far too much of them at too young an age.

With the older leaders retiring or being forced out because of entirely inappropriate governance it's meant that the void is being filled with a) a much younger generation with little life experience and b) the various odd balls hanger-ons with nothing better to do that organizations such as The Scouts attracts.

As such you're left with an ever-dwindling pool of good people. Those that are in the increasing majority seem to not know anything other than filling in risk assessments. As such, Scouting has become more dangerous but also far less fun than it used to be - we're also now stuck on the cycle where Scouting doesn't attract a wide base from which future Scout Leaders can be drawn from.

The best analogy I can bring up is when I met Ranulph Fiennes on top of Fairfield with a dozen public school kids. He was obviously doing a private mountaineering trip of some kind. It was miserable with poor visibility. Now, he might have completed all the risk assessments or he might not have, but I know I'd rather have him with no risk assessments than some of the Scout Qualified leaders that are in Scouting who have done ALL the risk assessments.