Typical of so many people - do whatever you want and expect others to clear up your mess. Not even a thank you is beyond belief. Maybe they'd like to buy each of the Patterdale MRT a meal and pint. About time people learned the meaning of responsibility generally! Very grateful to all the Mountain Rescue teams and all they do!

About time to name and shame?? I know its against the ethos of MRT's but surely, enough is enough!!

Not much of a leader. Surely if you are leading a group no matter how small or large you would fall back now and again to keep tabs on everybody.

People who get into difficultin the mountains for whatever reason, should never be discouraged from asking for help!! The dignity of the casualty should always be protected and they must never be criticised or ridiculed in an open forum.

Michael Wheelan, get real

If you had your leisure time disrupted by these inconsiderate, thoughtless, dickheads, perhaps you may think differently.

What a shame for the MRT to be ridiculed by Michael Whelan !!! . These members are so professional in everything they do . No wonder they are annoyed and astounded by the actions of the supposed " leader " .

It's the age old argument about charging people to be rescued. If they had to pay they wouldn't be so quick to call out the rescue services and might start to take responsibility for themselves. MRT are stars

@Michael Whelan:

> "People who get into difficulty in the mountains for whatever reason, should never be discouraged from asking for help"

Being an MRT member I don't disagree with that, BUT think it's more of a question of whatever the reason is.

There's an increasing number of "non-callout" callouts which are easily avoidable and it's a question of trying to educate people, not just encouraging them to go properly equipped and have the necessary skills, but also to have an understanding of just what really necessitates a callout.

Getting lost, feeling tired, going to be late for dinner etc where there is no threat to life should not be callouts.

We need to go back to folks having a little more resilience and self reliance in the hills.

...and as for the so called "leader". FFS, don't even get me started on that one! A party of 76...really?

My point is ... If someone is in distress, they should not be afraid to ask for help for fear of being ridiculed. I have great respect for MRT's . Keep up the good work..

It doesn't sound like they were actually in distress though.....

If someone, with little or no training or experience, tried to sail to Ireland in a small boat and had to be rescued, I would imagine the Coastguard Agency would release information to the media.

@Michael Whelan:

REALLY, Oh wait so what you are saying is those that create incidents that are better known as "NON-CALLOUTS" should not be brought to account for their quite frankly lack of consideration for others!? Sorry but as an instructor and MRT member all I see are COMPLETELY avoidable errors the first being the "Leader" who had no regard for anyone... He should have made sure they had stay together for safety and been the last person of the hills. Then there's the group size "76" hmmm.... No the fact he buggered off to have a meal and wine instead of making sure he was available as the final location his "LEAD" walk was finishing so that he could advise the MRT and help Identify those outstanding.. Yet he knew nothing about where everyone was etc... and Was happy to just leave everything to MRT to sort out... That's not a leader that's a self centered******************** ... Sorry but this is happening far far to often...

@Michael Whelan:

REALLY, Oh wait so what you are saying is those that create incidents that are better known as "NON-CALLOUTS" should not be brought to account for their quite frankly lack of consideration for others!? Sorry but as an instructor and MRT member all I see are COMPLETELY avoidable errors the first being the "Leader" who had no regard for anyone... He should have made sure they had stay together for safety and been the last person of the hills. Then there's the group size "76" hmmm....

No the fact he buggered off to have a meal and wine instead of making sure he was available at the final location his "LEAD" walk was finishing so that he could advise the MRT and help Identify those outstanding is irresponsible.. Also he knew nothing about where everyone was etc(some was already in bed)... He was simply happy to just leave everything to MRT to sort out... That's not a leader that's a self centered ******************** .

That is not how any group leader should operate. As a leader you have a responsibility to the group and their safety. You should call MRT when there is an incident that needs the highly dedicated members to attend and as the leader should be on hand to help..... This was not the case here...

So Michael Whelan please look at the situation as whole and place yourself in the role of a MRT member or even as the partner of one of the 76 in the walking part and ask yourself this, what should he have done???

Sorry but this is happening far far to often...

I didn't get further that being a pre-probationer for my local MRT. In the end family responsibilities had to come first and I resigned. It was always made clear to me that being a team member and even attendance at any particular callout was entirely voluntary. There are lots of motivations for being an MRT member but perhaps, for some, it's a need to feel helpful or even, dare I say it, important. MRT membership, for some, fulfills an ulterior motive which, nevertheless, is mighty useful if you ever need to call on them.

I don't think we know enough about this to criticise too firmly. What we do know is that people are fallible. MRT leaders as well as anyone else.

Did the person initiating the call identify themselves as the leader? Might it have been more that they were an organiser? Were the participants children or novices to which the "leader" owed a duty of care or others (presenting themselves as self-sufficient) who'd joined an organised trip because it offered convenience or companionship?

If, as a leader, I thought I might be called on to take part in a search, after a long day on the hill myself, I might try and get some food down me beforehand (I'd have skipped the wine though).

What I understand of MRT ethos in the UK is that teams exist for the benefit of ALL who find themselves in difficulty in the hills and that while a "quiet word of advice" might be appropriate, public shaming isn't (partly for the reasons that Michael Whelan outlines above). I think the team in question strike the right balance in outlining an issue, suitably bluntly, without publicly naming those involved. Good stuff.

Those arguing for fines or "naming and shaming" don't seem to understand this ethos. Those requiring help in this instance ought to have said "thanks" and "sorry". I hope a big donation is forthcoming. MRTs do brilliant work and their voluntary ethos is part of what makes it so valuable and special.

Remember 'this ethos' of not criticising those who teams rescue comes from the days when Rescue Teams were established by mountaineers who went out to help fellow mountaineers.

This fraternal situation has changed drastically, mainly within the last few decades with the explosion of commercialisation and the many and various agencies encouraging more and more people to take to the hills.

Clearly many do not have the skills and experience necessary to take to the hills without troubling the volunteers in Rescue Teams.

We should do the same as continental countries, people who make non genuine callout and get lost through their own stupidity should be MADE TO PAY _ No free rides !!!!

The majority of my walking colleagues (and there are dozens of them) agree totally

Having been an avid outdoor enthusiast for the past 50 yrs, it seems that for as long as I can remember there have been similar stories relating to inexperienced walkers and the misuse of MRT services. With magazines and the media regularly appealing for people to be more educated and prepared. Dare I say it seems all to no avail.

Appeals over the years to be more prepared are not reaching the target audience, but are merely preaching to the converted on web sites such as this.

This is not going to go away and the MRT's are also under increased pressure to assist Police in searches for vulnerable missing people, because of reduced staffing levels due to their budget cut backs. In the current climate MRT's are unlikely to obtain retained status or government funding.

I have some sympathy with the view that people should contribute towards rescue. After all if you are taken to hospital by ambulance following a Road Traffic collision, the trust have discretion to recover costs, but that is usually dealt with by insurers.
Implementing (discretionary) charges for Rescue would in my view have a huge impact attracting publicity and increased awareness. It would certainly focus minds but there would have to be a joint will to go down that road.

So either we continue as we are or perhaps it is time to think outside the box and consider a more proactive approach in educating outdoor enthusiasts.
In the UK Fire and Rescue Services do a lot of fire prevention work now which has now drastically cut down on their call outs.
On the basis that prevention is clearly better than cure, has anyone ever considered some such approach or even inter agency work between the NT, National Park Rangers and MRT's. Such as staff offering advice and education at hot spots, or even erection of discrete notices. This could even be an opportunity to raise funds by selling maps, compasses and head torches, bivvy bags etc etc. Pointing people in the direction of hill skills courses available through Mountain Training or the NNAS could be a potential educational opportunity. Maybe even consider including Liasion with Charity Walk Organisers/ companies.
Just as an example, imagine one MR/NT/NP person strategically placed at the foot of each of the National Three Peaks or other popular routes at key times who could be in a position offer appropriate advice as well as their primary roles.
Yes, there will be objections and obstacles, but perhaps it's time for a radical re think. Views please !

@John Newrick: "...people who make non genuine callout and get lost through their own stupidity should be MADE TO PAY"

Then all we have to do is set up the body which decides what is or is not a genuine callout and whether the people concerned got lost (or injured?) through their own stupidity and Bob's your uncle. What could be simpler? With the inate British sense of fair play, I'm sure we can count on everyone to accept said body's verdict without dispute or resorting to the law - or simply refusing to pay.

Frustrating it may be, but such simplistic "solutions" are never going to work.

Congratulations to Patterdale MRT for striking the right balance.

These huge groups going into the hills are a growing problem. Earlier this year I encountered a similarly sized group in the Grey Corries. They seemed keener on "bonding" than enjoying the mountains. Inevitably, given the size of the group, some lacked hill competence and fitness. Given that this was a commercial outfit it would seem necessary for the rescue organisations to take a close look at these outings before we get a tragedy. I shudder to think what would happen if any of these large groups encountered a serious storm at altitude

Mike some very good points and ideas, including the increasing use of Rescue Teams by Police for non hill incidents.

Raymond again very good points about large commercial or charity groups - perhaps such groups, perhaps any commercial outdoor organisation, could place a bond with Police which could be used to finance any call-out they made. That should focus minds.

I think Margaret makes a good point about the fraternal mutual assistance situation perhaps being different these days and also Mike Wilson's point about articles such as this preaching to the converted.

Really we need these sorts of incidents reporting in the mainstream media for awareness to be raised among the right (wrong?) sort of people.

I maintain that Patterdale MRT seem to have struck the right balance and, rightly, steered away from "name and shame".

Charging for rescue services, though, is the wrong way to go. Decisions about whether calls for help are "genuine" are not seem likely to engender elitism in one of the few unregulated, free, accessible leisure activities that still remain. And who would make them, as MRDog suggests?

The answer, I think, is to promote greater, targeted, awareness of the mountain environment, its hazards and communities (including MRTs) and our impacts on and responsibilities to them, as Mike Wilson suggests.

Lots of good points in amongst all the comments.
Something needs to be done or this will continue over and over. Making them pay, is a perfect solution, but implementing and managing is likely to be a problem.
One thing I do not see amongst any of the comments, is the
"so called" Leader.
Was the Leader trained and competent to venture out onto the hills with such a large party. It certainly appears not. The last thing a Leader should do, is clear off to the pub and leave the rest to fend for themselves. Disgraceful.

Hats off to the MRT, great respect.

An organised group or company should be liable for costs incurred by MRT in my opinion. There's an apparent lack of due dilligence and duty of care being perpetuated here and having a group as large as 70+ is asking for trouble.

This so called leader being off the hill and quaffing merlot needs to be brought to book too. Being a leader doesn't mean being first off the hill. It does mean supervising those under your guidance, being there to keep a close eye on your group and ensuring that everyone is okay and accounted for. He/she/it should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves if what has been implied in the article is accurate.

I know it's never likely to happen, but what if MRT volunteers say no. They are after all donating their own time. Every person has their breaking point I'm sure. Moral responsibility aside I for one wouldn't blame a volunteer for being unavailable.

In reality there's unlikely to be any progress with the issue because I get the impression that the majority of folk being rescued are not regular hill goers. Charity 3peakers who don't know their Great Gable from their Glaramara.

Perhaps it is time for a fundamental rethink.

I, for one, would be happy to see some kind of funded insurance/licence scheme required for all those that wish to venture out into the hills.

The proceeds could then help to cover the costs of rescues, footpath maintenance and MRT teams etc.

Like learning to drive, it might also be appropriate that you are required to undertake a certain amount of tuition and reach a certain skill level before being given the freedom to roam!

For someone who hates bureaucratic red tape I can't believe I've just written this!

Andy, no, no! Getting out to the hills is one of the few things we are able to do without having to check it with someone first, that freedom is priceless. We musn't change the rules because of the thoughtless, selfish and just plain ignorant. Policing any rules in the hills would also be just about impossible.

I enjoy hillwalking, scrambling and particularly in winter conditions. When I first started, I researched what was involved and the skills I'd need - it didn't take long to work out how best to set myself up. And it was fun learning! I reckon many of the avoidable callouts are from folk who treat going into the hills like a local walk in the countryside. There will always be those who don't think.

To me, a group of 76 is way too big and I can't understand the mentality of anyone who thinks this is manageable, or even appropriate, unless there were to be folk checking at points along the way and suchlike. Quite apart from this it utterly destroys the enjoyment for other hillgoers, in my view.

MRT across the land do an incredible job. I've read a few books about their work, in fact I've just finished the Oggi 'Risking Life and Limb' book. Compelling stuff and it brings home the commitment and sacrifices of team members. Educational as well.

Making mistakes is a good way of learning and is invaluable, hopefully always in a controlled way! However, what I would find interesting to know is, with these avoidable callouts, are these people actually aware that MRT teams exist or is it that their call was to the police, who passed it to MRT? If the former, then these folk are guilty of negligence, arrogance or whatever. After all, if there is the need for a MRT then the hill environment is obviously not to be taken lightly, so surely you would research a bit before setting out?

I wouldn't mind seeing large educational 'warning' signs say in car parks that are regularly used by hillwalkers. And maybe greater awareness of MRT in the main media so that something may just sink in.

I wouldn't want to attract more folk to our hills though, particularly massive groups and corporate team-building!

Ian J agree with your comments; it has become fashionable for organisations, agencies and government to 'encourage' folks to take to the hills for the sake of either commerce, fitness, charity or entertainment; while forgetting that, as you write, "if there is the need for a MRT then the hill environment is obviously not to be taken lightly".

Do you suppose that some of these ignorant and irresponsible people regard MRTs as part of the welfare state; and therefore assume that they can be called to help as one does with, for example, the ambulance service?

They need to be disabused and educated!

In nearly seventy years of wandering about our British mountains, mostly solo, but often leading groups, I've never had an accident nor have any of my clients suffered anything worse than a minor cut or abrasion, but it is comforting to know that MRTs are there to help if required.

God bless them all!

Hugh

@ Mike Wilson- re educating. I knew one bloke who spent an entire summer working as a Ranger at Ben Nevis doing exactly that- standing at the bottom on the track pointing out to people that trying to walk up the Ben in shorts and T shirt was not the world's best idea. But still they went ahead.
You can't fix stupid- but you could hammer the worst offenders with a large donation to the teams- perhaps THAT should be the publicity drive- we don;t charge for needed rescues but expect to pay if you are a fkwt ;-)
"There's no such thing as yetis Dave " (google it)