Sounds like an accident waiting to happen...

John, I absolutely agree with you, it’s an accident waiting to happen. To do something like this in the name of the rescue teams seems like the wrong thing to do. There are plenty of places out there that would be more suitable for a night walk with nothing to ‘fall off’.

If this must go ahead, hopefully it runs without any accidents.

Can I be on John and Wilf's team please.

Nonsense! Properly led and organised this will be as safe a walk as any other but probably a lot more fun. I wish I could be there to do it but it's a long way from Devon.

I’m on that team as well.

Given that there is lots of talk at the moment about avoidable callouts, surely this sends out a dangerous message to the inexperienced thrill seeking members of the public.

I’m surprised the rescue teams don’t object to this being done of their behalf and suggest somewhere a bit more sensible where lots of perhaps less experienced people could join in and do their bit to help.

The note above says for experienced scramblers, though I'm not sure how this could be vetted. Sounds like great fun to me. I reckon there'll be a lot of support and cameradary along the way.

If you are so keen to support your local MRT's why not donate say 10% of your business profits each year to them? You'll get tax relief.

Why drag hundreds more boots onto a mountain in November to cause further damage and potential increased accident risk?

£50 for someone to wander up a mountain which is free to use by anyone anyway?

Or perhaps it is just a cynical ploy to advertise your business under the cover of "fundraising."

Let's hope that the weather is good, I mean what could possibly go wrong on Striding Edge in the dark in November?

I fully support you guys, far too many health & safety wusses about. It's not even a difficult walk for experienced hill walkers! I hope to be able to make it. As for further damage....do you just want to keep it for Yourself? Selfish **@''!

Health & Safety wusses eh! Well maybe you’d like to explain to everyone what’s wrong with wanting to stay safe on the fells? Dear me what a stupid attitude towards people trying to talk a bit of common sense. I’m sure the families of people that have previously came a cropper on there would give anything for a H&S wuss to have talked to them before hand.

Yes, it’s an easy walk if you have the experience but, people with no experience will hear about night time walking and think they’d like to give it a try on their own, not as part of this event. That’s when the rescue teams will get the night calls asking them go out to scrape people off the rocks in Nethermost Cove.

Wilf and Sheepy, agree, especially, "10% of your business profits each year."

PS: those H&S Wusses are probably very experienced - but of course, without becoming political, we don't need experts any more.

Hi All,

My Name is Matt Le Voi and I'm the organiser of this event. Unsurprising to see such comments with an event like this, which is sad in my eyes.

The aim of this event is to lay on something that people wouldn't ordinarily do. We are not coaxing novices out to do this event with us or on their own - if they choose to do that then that is their decision, is it any different to Trail magazine posting about sleeping in the Priest Hole for a night and saying how good it is?

If someone could explain to me why Striding Edge becomes harder at night that would be great? In my eyes (and experience) it all stays the same, you just see less...

To mitigate against some of the issues we ask that everyone who joins the event details their scrambling experience. If they don't tell us, or have none, they cannot join the event. On top of this, there will be a qualified mountain leader for every 8 people on the mountain. Plenty of safety cover to give advice or lend a hand should anyone find the night element more challenging than expected. Further to this, many of these leaders will be serving members of MRT, a great add on so the walkers can maybe understand more about the associations.

Since 2012 we've led guided walks up Helvellyn via Striding Edge and we have had 0 accidents. We also did this event in April 2015, 0 accidents. We look 150 people up Halls Fell Ridge to raise money for Nepal and raised £5,000...0 accidents. We put 500 people on Catbells and raised a further £12,000 for Nepal...0 Accidents. Everything contains a risk, it's how you approach it that makes the difference. But why because there is a risk should we automatically default to 'it’s an accident waiting to happen'? If that was the case, we'd all be sat at home typing away on internet forums chatting about it wouldn't we. It's a good thing I don't look at the world this way, otherwise I'd have to shut the entire company down!

This event is supported by Lake District Search and Mountain Rescue Association, and they are grateful that we are taking the time to put something like this together. Providing an interesting experience and getting a fab outcome such as raising a few hundred pounds. They are going to be less bothered about a well thought out and staffed event such as this than the folks who continue to go up the edges when winter hits, or those who insist on starting up Scafell Pike at 1pm in November...

We won't be giving 10%, or any percentage of our yearly profits to any charity. A bulk of our work is supporting events which are raising money for charity, and in turn we sometimes provide special rates. Instead, we do two charity events a year to raise funds for various charities. This takes time and effort and we do not pay ourselves for this. Yes, there is always a PR outcome to this, but the charities get the exposure too, and more vitally the funds.
If we stuck to the 'it’s an accident waiting to happen' ethos, Nepali eathquake victims would be £17,000 worse off, and Mountain Rescue £400 (and soon to rise!).
Maybe you should question why other activity operators who have the same platform don't do more? Where does this stop?

That's my ten pence worth, enjoy your days.

Wow, very sad to see these comments. I'm looking forward to the invites from the armchair keyboard warriors to take part in events they have organized.

With decent headtorches, confidence walkers and a well run event, then this is just as safe as going up in typical lakeland clag.

10% business profit to charity? assuming Margaret will be donating 10% of her income to charity? Guides and small businesses in this sector hardly drive around in Ferrari's

As I'm not an 'armchair keyboard warrior', therefore no need for the ad hominem, as I've been on the hills many times in both summer and winter at night.

It's probably the irony that grates - at a time when Voluntary Rescue Teams are busier than ever, mainly because of commercialisation.

Many years ago the MCofS said that it was, 'not in the business of promoting mountaineering.' Now everyone and their dog seems to do so, trying to get people on the hill.

James, Sheepy was referring to those in the business of promoting mountaineering or making a commercial gain from it.

This looks like an exciting and enjoyable challenge entirely appropriate to someone with scrambling experience. Not everyone has suitably experienced friends to join up with to try things like this for themselves so it seems entirely appropriate that properly qualified and experienced commercial concerns should offer such opportunities if they wish. A bit of looking around would make it clear that Matt's company has considerable experience and expertise in conducting night time walks in adventurous terrain and doing so very well indeed. That he also chooses to link them to a little fund raising for an extremely good cause is much to be applauded. Of course he gains some publicity benefit from this but why shouldn't he do so? This is no cynical cold hearted money grabbing enterprise, this is a small local business that has done a great deal both directly and indirectly for charitable concerns. Through the training he offers and the good example he shows to his clients through the other parts of his business I am sure he is doing a great deal to help prepare people to travel safely and responsibly under their own steam in the fells and as such is helping to take pressure off the rescue teams rather than increasing the demands upon them. Surveys done by organisations such as Sport England make it clear that there are a large number of people who aspire to take part in adventurous hill walking. Our wonderful hills are not the preserve of only those in the know, they are available for all. Without professionals like Matt offering good quality training and experiences to those that seek it the accident statistics would be much higher. A well managed event like this, with good quality properly qualified staff making good judgement calls and offering proper advise and support to participants is to be encouraged in my mind. I wish Matt and all his participants a great evening!

Good bit of marketing Peter.

Put bluntly, it’s the volunteer rescue team member (the poor bloody infantry) who is bearing the consequences of the commercialisation of mountaineering.

Margaret, I know most of the rescue teams both in the Lakes and in Snowdonia, and I also have a business in this sector. Just so you are aware, which sounds like you are not, most the people in these teams run their own businesses or guide full-time (as in hillwalking/climbing). Your comments and pompous words are laughable...find something better to do with your time.

Why are many teams talking about being overstretched?

Read back a few of the recent posts on grough. Even a Guide can't always be out on call - and I have also been part of a team.

Again, no need for the ad hominem, it's demeaning for both parties.

Cant get the ball then get the man

Seems simple to me

More people on Fells
More chance of incidents
More work for rescue teams

Whilst I wish it every success - it seems pretty self-evident that an event with large number of people out at night on a scramble that has seen fatalities is riskier than some of the previous events that Lakeland Mountain Guides have run (from looking at their social media feed for past events).

What confuses me a bit though, is that the company's called Lakeland Mountain Guides, the owners are described above as guides, and Mr le Voi describes himself as a Mountain Guide on his Facebook page - but after having a quick scan through the 'who are we?' page - everyone listed on there is an ML. I'd only expect members of BMG (British Mountain Guides) to use that title in their marketing, as there's very obvious and massive differences in prerequisites, skills, experience and remit between the two.

Mr Le Vio

You said it would be great if someone could answer your question “why Striding Edge becomes harder at night” and then you go and answer it yourself by saying “you just see less”. Of course you see less, that’s the point, and it’s that fact that perhaps moves it from an easy night walk for an experienced person to an accident waiting to happen for a novice. As you say, if novices choose to do this on their own then it’s their decision. I can hear them now, “it can’t be that hard at night if hundreds of people managed to do it”.

You also ask if this event is any different than Trail Magazine posting about sleeping in Priest Hole for the night. I completely agree, there is no difference. Magazines, the TV, media and this type of event all give people ideas for outdoor adventures. I mean look the sad event that took place at Priest Hole recently to an apparently experienced person and look at what prompted the poor guy to go there in the first place. A TV program. So, given that we’re all agreed that this may just entice a novice to give it a go in the future, why on earth choose somewhere like Striding Edge, which is in fact an accident waiting to happen.

The idea for the event is brilliant but there are plenty of other places that would have been far better for something of this nature.

By the way, what’s to stop someone turning up and saying they have a long history of scrambling experience when in actual fact they’ve hardly set foot on a fell before.

Yes you’re right, everything does have a risk but don’t for one minute think because of this everyone has simply defaulted to ‘it’s an accident waiting to happen’. And, it’s quite naïve and insulting of you to hint that because someone says that, they must sit at home and do nothing more than chat about getting into the hills. I for one agree with the statement that this is an accident waiting to happen BUT, the reason for my opinion has nothing to do with internet forums, it come from having a lifetime of mountaineering under my belt, having spent time on a rescue team and now walking the Lake District fells almost every day.

DaveS - This event isn't riskier than every event we have run in the past - as we ran this exact same event last April. Guess what - it was absolutely fine and great fun. Striding Edge has seen fatalities, but so have far simpler places. I'm not downplaying Striding Edge, but compared to more serious undertakings such as Crib Goch, Sharp Edge, the Aonach Eagach or the Cuillin Ridge (and so many in between) we have chosen something slightly daring, but not overly serious - you cannot disagree with that.

With regards to the use of the term 'Mountain Guide'. It is a matter of opinion. You can argue till you are blue in the face, and so could I. What I will say, is I have had conversations with people in associations such as the Mountain Training Association and have been told I am OK to use the term. If you wish to discuss this further please feel free to call me using the number on my website.

Wilf from Keswick -

You do see less at night, but the immediate surroundings will obviously be lit up with the headtorch (and the light from surrounding headtorches). Under darkness with a headtorch, it is unlikely to be much different to a misty daylight traverse.

I cannot mitigate against what people may choose to do, or not do from seeing this event. What I can hope though is that the fact this is an organised event with professional instructors supporting the walkers would be enough of a signal it is not for novices. It is unreasonable to expect me to tailor my events based on what I think people looking in may or may not decide to do.

With regards to the figures, we are likely to have about 30-40 people on this event, not the hundreds you may be imagining.

You are correct, I am relying on honesty from every applicant with regards to their experience, what else can I do? Even if someone is an experienced scrambler, how do I know they will be OK doing the same thing at night? Well, this goes back to my original post - we have 1 professional leader for every 8 people on the mountain (and in truth it is likely to be closer to 1:5). It will become very evident once on the edge if anyone is struggling with the scrambling as they will slow down. This is more than a red flag to our leaders that this person may require additional support, and it will be readily provided. As planned though, I hope that all participants are more than capable and we will cruise across the edge as we did last year.

Going back to the 'Accident waiting to happen' argument - with a lifetime of mountaineering and other experience under your belt I am surprised you have this view on an event such as this. You will have done Striding Edge and as my comment above will realise that there are far more serious undertakings in the mountaineering world than Striding Edge with a headtorch on - even IF someone turned up with no experience. Does anyone really think that I would arrange an event on which I feel there is likely to be an accident? Why on earth would I do this? Outdoor Sports and mountainous activities have an element of risk (as you know) and that is probably one of the main drivers for why people participate. What we provide is an opportunity for people to do this under the guidance of experienced leaders. I approach all our events the same way, whether it be a half day walk up Castle Crag or a 24 hour walk of the Lakeland 3000's...We are prepared for any eventuality, and have mitigated against everything we can.

This event is happening. This event is being supported by experienced leaders. This event has the backing of Mountain Rescue England & Wales. This event will raise close to £1000 for charity. This event will be as safe as we can make it.

As before, if anyone has any further comments please feel free to contact me direct.

...use of the term 'Mountain Guide', did you have a conversation with BMG?

Hey Matt - cheers for taking the time to reply - I've only just seen your post.

Just to be clear: if you reread my post I didn't say it was riskier than all the events you've run, I said it was riskier than some. I do take issue with being told what I should think though - even with Striding Edge being less serious than the Cuillin (which is pretty elf-evident) there is no way I'd work on a night-time scrambling event with a relatively large number of people on a 1:8 ratio where I had no previous proof of their experience or chance to assess their capabilities. However, I'm totally aware that people's approach to professional risk (perceived or real) is different.

In your response to Wilf you say:

"This event is happening. This event is being supported by experienced leaders. This event has the backing of Mountain Rescue England & Wales. This event will raise close to £1000 for charity. This event will be as safe as we can make it."

It just worries me, and some other commentators - that it's a lot of people for the venue. I greatly doubt anyone who's commenting wants it to fail, or for someone to get hurt, or for that matter thinks risk is something to be avoided completely - but if a number of people are raising questions it's a possibility that there is something, somewhere that might need to be reassessed - or that your communication of the safety factors you've put in place might not have been as clear as it could have been on the initial post.

Before I run or lead any activity or part of it I'm thinking - if this goes wrong, have I done everything I can to mitigate it? If I end up in court is it defensible? If everything goes right - then its fine, if not then I've got to be really sure my route / activity choice is solid and defensible in the event of anything going wrong. Some might argue that's a sad state of affairs but that thought process is of benefit when questioning my motivation for potential choices - especially in this age of social media. The fact that profits of any particular event go to charity doesn't make that event immune to criticism or comment - and if a company is benefiting from the attendant PR then it seems fair that criticism or comment can occur in public too. There's a lot of charity events that are nowt but PR fluff and a lot of outdoor-focussed charity events that raise a decent amount but don't end up with logos plastered everywhere.

Re: The Mountain Guide thing, sure we could argue - but I'm not sure what it'd solve. Just to say I'm not a fan of people who aren't MLs calling themselves Mountain Leaders, people without MIA/C calling themselves Mountaineering Instructors, or people who aren't Guides calling themselves so. It's a vast amount of work to get these quals (as you are no doubt aware, having done the first) so I'd argue that using any title that one doesn't hold, in any area of work, may give an illusion of competence or qualification to those who aren't quite up to speed on the structure of quals in the UK and could be a bit of an affront to those who have earnt said qualification.

So I do apologise for continuing the discussion outside your preferred method, but when running a public event advertised as widely and as publicly as this one then you open it up to public discussion. I do genuinely hope it goes well, and all the best.

Oh my goodness! I hope it is a brilliant experience and wish everyone a fab time. The organisers are experts and have MRT support- why this is not enough to satisfy the worriers is beyond me. Sometimes I wish we could be a little less quick to be critical; it is good that none of us want to see MRT called out, especially for avoidable accidents, but we should remember WHY we go to the hills. It isn't so we can feel cosy and warm, basking in the glow of our screens...have a great day everyone, whatever you get up to. x

Hilary (and some others)

What is it some you people can’t grasp. The event itself may be well organised (no one has said otherwise) and yes, it does have support from the rescue teams but, and it’s a very big but, the inexperienced people who may just see this and decide to ‘have a go’ do not have this kind of support. That is what people mean by an accident waiting to happen NOT and I mean NOT the event itself.

And why feel the need to make such a stupid remark about feeling cosy and warm, basking in the glow of our screens. Or are you another person who thinks anyone with a different opinion has it because they sit in front of a computer instead of getting outdoors.