This situation has been going on for over 40 years Trying to get well intentioned fund raisers to try other methods is like hitting your head against a brick wall.The majority of people doing the challenge have no map and compass skills and very little appreciation of the mountain scenery.They think Mountain Rescue is a guiding service they are not prepared to pay for .When they are challenged they reply but we are doing it for charity.In the main so are MRTs.Talking to Park authorities is a waste of time and the damage to the environment plus the amount of litter left behind just gets worse. Why dont these charities try a sponsored clean up of the coastline ,plenty to go at and helping the environment instead of polluting it.These groups do nothing for the local economy and disturb the local residents during the night with their fleets of minibuses and chattering hoards.End of rant.

Surely even a modicum of inexperienced thought might suggest potential difficulties.

No, I take that back, I'm being silly now.

Perhaps we have reached the point where signage at the bottom is required "Do not attempt to climb these mountains in the dark or poor weather without the required safety and navigational equipment and skills to use them" - I believe there is a case for it that the Trust and BMC and Park Authority can make. As with the MLs, MRTs will always respond to a cry for help but this is getting to be a serious issue for the MLs and their clients. These signs could also be endorsed by the Police who have to respond to these very avoidable '999's. I take my rescue hat off to the MLs as they have significantly reduced the workload for our teams. Local teams will have a view on signage and whether this is the way forward. The above are just my personal views.

Please join the debate as I am sure there are other leaders and marshals out there that have experienced similar difficult decisions regarding helping others on the mountain in the dark or poor weather. Tourism is heavily marketed within the Lake District. This will inevitably increase the numbers of ill prepared tackling the mountains. Some of the increased income generated should therefore be used to help prevent this situation getting worse.

Richard W
Team Member

It's the 3peaks challenge which is the problem. In my opinion it should be stopped or discouraged for safety reasons. Firstly it is dangerous driving at high speeds whilst tired to beat a deadline, secondly it is dangerous running in the dark, inexperienced in the mountain environment, and thirdly it endangers others who have to rescue them

Totally agree with John Howard. The charities raising money from the 3peaks challenge need to take much more responsibility. They've only recently started taking their littering situation seriously. Now they must tackle the lack of skills of the participants or else stop signing up people with nil experience of mountain conditions.

yep i experienced this too last year in August , Really bad weather day chucking buckets down on scafell pike , came across , a European young Lady totally lost in the cloud by her self , and then an elderly gent in a sailing jacket, the lady didnt want to get her map out of her rucksack as she didn't want to get it wet ! so attempted to use a guide book , no compass, the elderly chap simply was misplaced in the cloud ,did have the right kit map and compass but was struggling with his specs misting up all the time . , so I ended taking them up to the top and bringing them back down via the corridor route .
going past a small group of Ladies practicing for 3 Peaks , Soaked in their shorts.

and this was on my Holiday out for a Day with the Dog .

Sean Winter ML.

I spent some time at Wasdale Head over the weekend. Frightening to see some of the ill equipped groups setting off in daylight let alone during the night. Some of thems idea of navigation is simply to look out for a group who appears to know what their doing and follow them. A group from work organised to do the 3 peaks for a local charity, I was asked to sponsor them but declined. I did however offer to sponsor them to stay at home. They had no appreciation of the beauty or the dangers of the landscape, offered nothing to the local economy, will never return to the area having not enjoyed the experience yet were congratulated on return. Some folk need to get back to sitting in a bath of baked beans for sponsorship rather than putting themselves, and the poor souls that have to pick up the pieces when all goes wrong, in danger.

This situation has gone on for over 40 years.The majority of three peakers have no map and compass skills and very little appreciation of the mountain environment They do not contribute to the local economy and disturb local residents with their fleets of minibuses and constant banter.They destroy the environment and leave tons of litter which other people have to remove.When challenged about their lack of knowledge and correct mountain equipment they simply say,but we are doing it for charity.Mrts are charitable bodies too who are expected to supply a guiding service free of charge .Why dont these charities set about doing a sponsored cleanup of the coast line?Plenty to go at and a contribution to the environment.I suspect this comment will be discarded as some people do not wish to hear the truth behind the 3 Peaks Challenge.Trying to get the park authorities to take action is futile.

Totally agree with John Howard re the three peaks circus.
Ironically midsummer seems to be the silly season and the numpties just flock to the Lakes, N Wales and Scotland, seemingly oblivious that these are real mountain regions which suffer from rapid and quite extreme weather change. There is absolutely no excuse for ill preparedness. Kit, navigation tools and knowledge of how to use them are a bare minimum for general safety.
Many a time I have been asked to assist with directions or location etc from folk clearly not prepared. My first question is ' what does your map and compass say?' I wish I had a tenner for every blank look I've had in response to that one!
Interestingly, this morning I decided t have a stroll up Catbells before getting my shopping in. Hoards ascending in a reet assortment of footwear, but also a large party of approximately 35 or 40 youngsters about 14 yo or so coming down towards Hawse End. Some were having difficulty descending the rocky steps down so I hung around. I asked one group how many teachers they had with them and was told 4! The diligence of some of these group leaders was questionable as little attention was being paid to leadership. One youngster in particular was struggling trying to negotiate her way down with a buttie in one hand and a drinks bottle in the other!
But hey ho!

I think if I was a Seatoller or Wasdale resident I would be looking to fit gates on the roads in. Obviously all local residents and emergency services would have free movement but outside of that the minibus posse etc would either have a very long walk in or have to wait til the morning. I have great sympathy for the ML /MRT but even more so those living along the approaches. It must be a miserable experience in the night with the constant traffic.
If you make the challenge nigh on impossible for the masses just by restricting access during certain hours I'm sure everyone else would benefit.
Failing that the charities themselves should be picking up the tab for the rescues and above all else insisting that anyone walking under their name is suitably tooled up.
As an aside, how many regular hillwalkers would start a climb of Scaff Pike after dark?

Richard, I agree, those who benefit financially should, at the very least, be helping to pay for the chaos caused. Even if it is a charity.

Much appreciation to the MLs who have helped the lost and under equipped.

a further thing that the wise old men of the mountains could do is validate easier, lower level routes in the great outdoors. Get out the message that a moderate walk using a track is still a great thing for anyone to do, and not just a silly little time filler while the kids are young or the grandparents insist on tagging along.

There is a vibe in the outdoor magazines that only a summit assault along a ridge with an easy scramble along the way really counts.

I'm not sure they're taking their littering seiriously having bagged up 18 bin bags from Lake Head car park the other Sunday morning. As for further signage, I honestly believe that it would be ignored as well as being out of keeping with the hills. Once folk arrive they are determined to go for it whatever the consequences. I truly believe that we have been lucky so far regarding incidents.

Every year we contact the main charities concerned, some are really switched on but the majority carry on regardless. We've also set up a website with Ben Nevin and Snowdon threepeakspartnership.co.uk to try and get key messages across; again the responsible groups take it on board but the rest don't.

Changing attitudes and behaviour is always difficult and a slow process. I'm hopeful that if we keep plugging away then we'll get there eventually, although it doesn't feel like it at the moment.

I do feel for the residents of Wasdale with the minibuses racing in and out at unsociable hours.

The introduction of gates would cause problems as it is a public highway all the way to Wasdale head. Would the residents, in effect, become owners and thus responsible for the upkeep of the road, pothole repair etc...? Would be an interesting proposal to Cumbria CC.

I have done the 3 peaks 3 times - all raising funds for charity, organising a car full of walking colleagues + a driver, ensuring the participants were fit enough, had been on a mountain top, had the right equipment and knew how to use it, driving home and instilling in them that this isn't a walk in the park - people can and do have accidents - sometimes with tragic consequences.

The moment my groups realised this was serious, was when everyone filled in an "in case of emergency" form listing next of kin, allergies, etc... To be left with our designated driver. At that point, people took notice and treated what we were planning to undertake with the respect in deserved.

We offset the carbon emissions generated from the 1,000 miles we travelled, policed all our litter from each peak car park area, and donated to the respective MRTs.

I have climbed Scafell Pike many times, in good weather and bad. I have seen people, as everyone who uses Grough will have seen, on mountain tops who have no place being there, chronically under equipped, (including one young man on SP with the tesco carrier bag, no torch or rucksack or map apart from a google picture of a view taken from Seatallen with a photoshopped line on it for a route / in a tee shirt as night was rapidly falling who refused to take wiser counsel as to his imminent predicament) posing risks to themselves and others who might be called upon to aid them. A statistic waiting to happen as they say.

But I have also seen people in that situation have a moment of absolute clarity, that they realise that their situation could have ended very differently. This moment will remove them from repeating their mistake and they will be better from it. This is how we grow as individuals. Those that don't, are doomed to repeat their mistakes, and next time the outcome may not be as forgiving.

All walks of life have individuals who are irresponsible, who do not want to understand the risk of what they do, and will always expect someone to help them. Is this the responsibility of the charity to educate or the individual? If the charity has spelled out the risks, provided signage to all the necessary resources to inform their fundraisers of those risks, then I'm not sure they can do more without paying for MLs for everyone who raises fund in their name when doing the 3 peaks or any other mountain based challenge.

I love the Isolated places, the personal challenge of dragging my weary bones to the summit of whatever is planned for our adventure, as long as the risk, as such is accepted and minimised, but I do this from a place of being that person who had a "moment", who believed bad things happened to other people, and which could have gone horribly wrong many years ago when my "friend" stood there and laughed as a simple Mistake almost caused me to fall off a mountain (a terminal drop), my attitude changed to walking in high places, to life and to that individual.

The National 3 Peaks is hard, is a personal achievement, can be a real life changing moment in showing people there is more to life than an Xbox, can sadly be disruptive to those residents at the Peaks, but I do believe it is possible to be responsible and respectful in undertaking it.

Once those who were lost have had time to reflect on what, or what could have happened, I am positive that they will realise they were very lucky, and the next time they go on a hill, they will think twice over the approach they take towards their next adventure.

Mary - I think the 'wise old men' have been saying something similar for years.

One result of commercialisation is that you need hype and drama to sell things.

I recently climbed Snowdon and I had everything needed for any eventuality. It was disturbing however to see novices walking up wearing trainers and holding umbrellas! Most did not have the right kit and some were even attempting the Crib! Of course we later found out that some got lost up there and had to be rescued.
I think it's time signs were put up warning people that appropriate kit is required and that in poor weather conditions ( which as we know can change suddenly on mountains) that navigation skills are necessary.
I also believe that those who have to be rescued by helicopter because of poor skills/ kit should be charged a fee!