An 'investigation' required? Does MRT not actually know the reasons as I would have thought it pretty damned obvious.

Perhaps the national park authority should be putting signage in the car parks supported by North Wales police advising of the issues of the North ridge. People will still scramble the routes but will perhaps think twice. It not a case of scare mongering, more of a kindly advice to the ill experienced and unprepared. It is up to the park authority to make it clear that 33 incidents on Tryfan is not something to be ignored.

If OVMRO feel it appropriate to add their ten pennyworth then fine. Signage is a sensitive and emotive subject hence the reason to keep it at the roadside and not on the hill itself.

I will not be surprised if this comment starts a flurry of responses. It's always good to debate these subjects in a constructive manner and happy to start the ball rolling as it is not just a Snowdonia problem.

Richard

Can they not put paint flashes on the rock to mark a safe route as they do on almost every other route in continental Europe?

Had a pretty bad fall here myself yesterday. Fell about 25ft but was extremely lucky and seem to have got away with just bad bruises.

Pretty easy to see why there are frequent mishaps. A seemingly sharply defined ridgeline on both profiles and a roadside start makes it look easy for all abilities. There are also larger numbers taking to the hills so maybe its a proportional thing.

The Kerry Mountain Rescue team in Ireland have put discrete signs in the car parks around Carrauntoohil advising the public to have the gear and experience for the ground ahead. However this is a much remoter area.

My wife an I climbed Tryfan in 2013 and had an amazing day.
We had very little experience of scrambling, but we prepared very well and read multiple articles on the subject and had about as much kit with us as we could carry (too much in hindsight, but thats experience for you).

The climb put me completely out of my comfort zone, but not out of my physical ability, so we managed to complete the route with big smiles and only a handful of moments when my fears threatened to stop progress.
The Mrs was absolutely fine, she has mountain goat in her blood.

Having since read dozens of arcticles about Tryfan in "outdoor" magazines, not one of these really highlight how dangerous this mountain can be, most focusing on Adam and Eve (which I chose not to attempt).
They mention words like "tricky, demanding and exposure", but I dont think enough emphasis is given to the potential dangers in plain/obvious English.

As with many, many mountain routes, and what I told my teenage son before our 1st walk over Striding edge "your 1st wrong step may be your last".

That said, we had a fantastic day with some of the most breathtaking mountain views and I would (and have) recommend Tryfan to anyone phsically able, but I would definitely advise extreme caution.

I do not feel that the press take this seriously enough.
As a relatively inexperienced walker, moving on to scrambling was my natural progression, the outdoor magazines sitting on the shelves of Tesco are the easiest source of information about the subject.

Ian

Why investigate and what would the outcome be? It seems it is a honey pot location and more people means more likely to be accidents.people will always access the hills and maybe more educational Imput however loads of courses around if people choose to do them and
Therfore it is difficult to educate
mrt generally less busy in Scotland and maybe people more hill savvy up here and mrt do not turn out for everything so more self resilience as mountain folk should have?

33 sounds like a lot, but how many people tackle the mountain every day? Must be hundreds, if not thousands on a good weekend day.

Hmm sometimes I wonder who these Mountian Rescue "spokesmen" think they are .
I totally agree with John Boy whats the point of an investigation and what good would it do . Anyone who ventures in the to the Ogwen valley on a regular basis knows that its the shear number of people using the hills , which is the same reason the Scottish teams are less busy .
I believe the Park did a study and found 300,000 people going through the Idwal gate alone in one year. I wonder how many millions of people live within a 3 hour drive of the Ogwen valley? Drive down the Ogwen valley on a fine day anyday of the week and you will find it from busy to packed.
Tyfan will always be a problem as it is closer to the road than any other comparible mountain in the UK and has more places to fall off or get stuck on.
We definatly dont want signs and painted stones on the route . but some signage in the car parks may help .

I have climbed Tryfan twice in my younger years and have total respect for its uncertain nature. I do remember the second time well having been stuck in mist only to get safely to the top to find a guy wearing a teeshirt and flip flops ! Ill prepared, ill equipt people are the problem ! My view is if you are rescued off the mountain and have been equipt, sensible and prepared its acceptable to ask for OVMRO to come out and assist but if you go up in teeshirt and flip flops and need assistance you should be heavily charged ! That should deter a few lolly lickers on a day trip thinking its a nice afternoon stroll

What would the signs read? "This is a mountain. You might fall off if you're sloppy."? Do me a favour.

I've done Tryan several times in the past but now avoid like the plague what used to be my fave mountain, simply because of the sheer numbers crawling all over it most days, littering it and excreting on it.

What I did notice when doing the North Ridge is that most people seem to lose the main path right at the start as so many people do in fact take the wrong direction at the wide and confusing base, creating what look to be like official paths when indeed they are not, and lead the less experience to follow them to possible dangerous ground.

Signs would look awful up the mountain but for the first 100ft would be a possibility just go get people on the right track from the start, perhaps paint splashes for the same distance instead or maybe more in keeping and more familiar, just cairns ? Remove any misleading or incorrect cairns and just make more obvious correct ones out the surrounding stone ? This is done on almost every other popular mountain so I can't see it as any offence on the eyes really and it would definitely reduce the number of accidents through incorrect route following ?

Unfortunately people underestimate the dangers of the Snowdonia mountains. You only have to look at the idiots walking up the Snowdon motorway from Llanberris every day.
They are unaware that the higher you go the colder it gets, the weather changes very quickly and you can slip and fall at any time.
Tryfan looks exciting and possibly easy to master, so inexperienced fools will always be tempted to have a go.
I don,t think anything you do will stop these events.
Carry on doing your important job to the best of your abilities and just pray that the number of idiots starts to reduce.

Don't you think trail magazine and other similar publications, I had a degree of mountain experience before I attempted tryfan maybe that's one of the issue, I happily take cadet groups on this mountain safely and have done for many years but hand pick the ones that I think are mentally and physically upto it

Having used the painted spots that are common in Europe and especially the colour coded grades of 'path' in Switzerland, I do not feel that these are too much of an intrusion. Swiss style Alpine signing may be something we should embrace as the benefits outweigh the costs and after over 50 years of walking and climbing experience in all areas of the Uk, and many instances of leading groups on Tryfan, would not, in this day and age, object too strongly for such as these in popular areas in the UK. However on Tryfan's north ridge they might cause a bigger problem in forcing huge queues as folks follow the paint! Tryfan's routes up and down involve route choice and one of the delights is to find the way upwards. It should be treated as a scramble and this might mean use of a rope in places for the less confident. Coming down is far more difficult and quite a lot of the call outs result from folks who have turned back or are coming down as part of a plan. Maybe a sign in the car park which says that "ascent or descent of the north ridge should only be attempted by persons with significant mountain experience including rock climbing".

I can't see what will come of an 'investigation' at all and what will it achieve? It is very easy to bumble into TKMaxx and equip yourself with Boots, Waterproofs, Rucksack etc etc for about £100 which of course instantly turns you into a 'mountaineer' and you are then free to wander the hills at whim with no idea of what is ahead of you. I suppose the way forward is through education and warning of potential hazards, but that smacks too much of 'Big Brother'. Having worked in the outdoor sector as a manager of a large country park at the foot of Snowdon for over 20 years I have seen sights that you wouldn't believe and people who you would advice of the risks would take it in one ear and out of the other but how can you 'force' people to take heed, we spent large amounts of money creating information boards as do other organizations but these are largely ignored and unread or in one case a few years ago when we set out trails with markers were constantly vandalised, so you can't win whichever way you go.
It would be a sad day if we had to control access to our hills by judging peoples abilities or forcing them to prove that they are able to undertake some task or other, will it come to 'no insurance, no access' in the future or have to pay for a rescue as they do in many other countries, when the Seakings of 22 Squadron are no longer our 'free' get out of trouble card and the shiny new 'corporate' rescue service is up and running it will be interesting to see how long it will be before they levy a charge for plucking you off the hill if you get into trouble. when workers like nurses and local gov employees are fighting for a decent wage and services are being cut in the name of austerity it will be interesting to see how long a 'free' rescue service exists.
There has to be an element of risk in people's lives otherwise we are in danger of becoming (or already are) a sedentary species who will need to be spoon fed with all our daily instructions of what and how you can or can't do something.
The element of risk/enjoyment/thrill is what getting out on the hills is all about and takes you out of your comfort zone and in reality gives you the self awareness to survive, of course accidents will happen and a few unlucky folk will get seriously injured and some will lose their lives, but as can be witnessed in recent days even cricket can be fatal, will it ban the 'bouncer' ball or will umpires have to be kitted out in full body armour?. The biggest risk most people take when they decide to have a day on the hills is the journey they make to get there via the motorway and the narrow rural roads, you can pass your test on a small motorbike and then go out and buy a Kawasaki ZZR 900 capable of 170mph, which of course doesn't make you an instant Barry Sheene but we aren't going to ban cars and bikes in the near future as much as we aren't going to stop people going into TKMaxx and purchasing a load of mountain gear. Thousands of people climb the hills of Wales every year and mostly survive the ordeal, out of all the people who climbed Tryfan this year, how many have been rescued, in percentage numbers of ascents it must be miniscule. The MRT teams in Snowdonia and beyond, all volunteers with their own families and lives to live do a fantastic job and their enthusiasm and dedication is second to none and you can understand their frustration when they get called out to another 'ill prepared' group who get into trouble but it would be a huge shift in thinking if the day came when we had to be given permission to go out on the mountains by proving our ability to survive. There is still something a bit anarchic about going on the hills, a freedom that was long fought out to allow us to roam the hills without trespass and worry of prosecution, access to some areas of Snowdonia are relatively recent and this access should never be compromised. So an 'investigation' in my mind will prove nothing and may open a floodgate of unwanted regulations if taken to heed by someone with scant knowledge, (read politician), good old common sense (sadly lacking) and less wrapping everybody in cotton wool will hopefully win the day. Enjoy your days on the hill and take as much care as you are able , can't ask for more than that.

Maybe the outdoor magazines should donate a page to Mountain Rescue to highlight the rescues they have made in the areas covered by the upbeat articles. This might educate their readers of the risks involved and the importance of supporting Mountain Rescue.

Unfortunately, as per the norm, it will probably take a major human tragedy (I.e. A number of fatalities in a group of inexperienced, poorly equipped and inadequately led) before anything significant is eventually done to educate and advise and prevent a recurrence. (I sincerely hope such a tragedy never happens). Hopefully the task of education and trained will not be left to MR but taken up by BMC and the Parks who already share the burden of accident prevention.

Let's hear the outcome of the OVMRO investigations, they are a very experienced and professional outfit and will get to the bottom of it. It may not be a simple as down to numbers of visitors or ever growing numbers of the ill prepared. I have an open mind on this one .

Best wishes to all contributors to the discussion.

Richard

It's understood that the BMC are looking again (yawn!) to engage with hill walker members more.

Maybe here's a project for a start, Like the idea of the alpine style markers in a discreet way.

I've said this loads of times in the past. Firstly, there is no real data involving MRT rescues. ie, how experienced were they, how fit, were they overweight, why did they tackle that mountain, did they read the weather forecast, know what time it went dark... etc. It's essential to be know the facts. It's no good saying they were or were not equipped correctly. Fell runners are NOT properly equipped, but appear in few MRT rescues.

Secondly, a lot of magazines "glamorise" Tryfan, show smiling faces and bravado in the face of danger. I climbed a few hundred hills and mountains before I first climbed Tryfan and to me it wasn't easy - especially the navigation.

Now-a-days, there's no need for an apprenticeship on the hills, it's all in magazines and books for people to follow.

Thirdly, and more controversially, rescues are free. Sorry to raise this issue as I know it irritates many. But, people will pay the RAC and AA to rescue their car on the road during a breakdown, but expect their "lives" to be saved for free on the mountains by unpaid volunteers. Says it all.

The MRT of yesterday was about supporting the community and like minded hill folk, today there's commercialism involved. Times have changed.

Investigation? Hardly needed. The reason is pretty obvious.

it is pretty obvious yes - people get lured in by the write ups in trail etc and because its such a generic magazine people get lulled into a false sense of security-the media are not putting sufficient emphasis on dangers, there's not enough consideration for who's picking their mags up - a seasoned hillwalkers needs are very different from a novice - but trail tries to cater for all - and there's not enough distinction between easier routes and ones which can lead to all sorts of problems. the route guides are pretty vague too - and this can spell disaster on a complex hill like Tryfan.
i'm surprised by the don't paint splodges on my mountain brigade though.. if it saves lives then its an important addition.. but i'd go further than that with a scramblers stay away sign at the key trouble spots..

maybe oggie mrt could get some route leaflets with wainwright style drawings on them - to help keep folk away from these areas.

What ever happens, you'll never stop Mr Ego......
This group may of been experienced and had the correct equipment.
Tryfan is a hard mountain to scramble and experience is a necessity.
In my view, it's better to stop novice scramblers before they start the climb. Warning signs at the car park may help this.
It's a hard one!

I remember when the rock fall happened on Lord's Rake on Scafell which made that route out of bounds to all but the most experienced. Nobody complained when the landowners put up warning signs up on the fell. If the information signs are actually in the car park I can't see how anybody would object and even higher up when there is still the possibility of turning back, if that is possible to find a spot where everyone passes? I sometimes wonder if there should be someting similar at the The Hole in the Wall gate on Helvellyn before striding edge starts. Just a final 'are you sure' words of advice. Striding is great fun on a clear day and anyone reasonably fit with a head for hights will do fine, but in the rain, mist, wind its a very different kettle of fish. And Tryfan is way harder.

Route markers on the fell itself are the thin end of the wedge for me though. And what happens when someone falls off, gets injured or worse and then sues the National Park because it provided route markers. But anything short of that shoudl be tried IMO

Its not always down to equipment and experience though. I once sat on striding for over an hour while a rescue took place as a lad had fallen off. We had to all sit down on the edge and watch because of the helicopters while the RAF and the great team from Patterdale MR did their thing. The casualty was a TA fella, properly equipped with good boots on a fine day and their group leader was a quailified Mountian Leader. It just happens sometimes.

Richard Warren (Lakes MR),

I think you will sadly be proved right that "nothing will change unless a major human tragedy takes place".

OVMRT should be encouraged to investigate the issue, rather than criticised by other users of this forum and I hope that they come up with an action plan that can be debated by the various stakeholders.

In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, discreet signage on the route (eg painted boulders) would reduce accidents without diminishing the experience for the majority of walkers. Since there are at least a hundred different ways up Tryfan varying from a grade 1 scramble to E-grade routes, the rest of us should be able to find an alternative, less crowded way up. Please note, Tryfan is the only mountain in the UK where I think this is a good idea. I can certainly think of mountains in Switzerland, the French Pyrenees and New Zealand where this approach works well on the more popular routes used by walkers when ascending to well-known huts.

Other British mountains like Snowdon and Ben Nevis have very obvious ascent routes and large parts of these routes are man-made. Rather than reducing the objective difficulty of Tryfan North Face by flying in paving stones (as has happened on Y Garn descent route), I'd be happy for route-finding to be made a little easier on Tryfan North Face before there is an accident which attracts the attention of the tabloid press.

#putsonhardhat

Mountaineering is a dangerous & high risk activity but so are lots of other outdoor activities. If you are sensible, take the necessary precautions and stay within your comfort zone then you may be ok. You cannot start blaming publications for inspiring people to take to the outdoors. We have a society where lots of people lead unhealthy lifestyles. Unless you have experienced friends that are willing to take you then the other options are Mountaineering/walking clubs or expensive courses. Nice to see that Sport England is subsidising beginner climbing courses at PYB.
If you start to make things look easier by painting rocks etc then this may attract even more inexperienced people. Look at how many people go up the Ben Nevis 'tourist' route each year ill-equipped and usually with no navigation experience at all. More people that take up the sport of mountaineering then obviously the accident rate will increase. More statistical evidence is required before everyone starts jumping to conclusions.

Paint spots - not a bright idea. Just gives the illusion of tameness and will encourage more onto a route that deserves a wee bit of respect. Will save lives, until Billy No Maps misses a spot.

Big issue with that hill is that the rock tends to be rather slippery. That is definitely a factor, I have seen some near misses.

Still my most climbed big hill, and I live in Scotland.

To all of the previous posts:

If you weren't at the exact location, on Tryfan's north ridge, at the exact time of the incident, you don't know…
… I wasn't there, either.

However, the guy who had the 'tumble' (potentially a serious one) is a member of my (experienced and responsible) group of walkers and scramblers. He and the rest us are not total idiots.

I do hear and respect comments regarding cavalier and/or foolish attitudes on potentially serious routes — no doubt we've all seen flip-flops and cotton t-shirts on Yr Wyddfa!

Please let's have this discussion in context. Not as an 'add on' after a rather fortunate/unfortunate event. Yes?

The last time I was on Tryfan North Ridge, there were at least twenty-five others within view at all times. At least ten of these were in trainers. It is an exceptionally busy mountain, right on the road, so I'm not in the least surprised by the number of call outs. Regards the painting of boulders, on such a complex mountain how would you go about this? The direct line on the north ridge is a solid Grade 1, yet all the obstacles can be navigated around to make the ascent barely above a clamber. Would the painted line take the easiest line, or the direct line? Painting the easiest line would produce a tedious winding route that would rob lots of experienced scramblers of most of the joy of the route, whilst painting the direct could well lead the inexperienced or under-prepared into difficulties. I don't think that is the way to go. By all means signage highlighting the nature of the mountain in the car park, but such signage doesn't seem to deter the trainer brigade from Crib Goch one bit. At the end of the day, you can't say who is and who is not qualified to roam in the National Park. Personally, I'd start charging (fining) for call outs. Sliding scale, with a well prepared and equipped individual/party involved in an "act of god" accident such as a rock fall impact at the lowest end, and the ill-equipped trainer wearing, no map idiot who sets off alone two hours before last light, gets lost and crag fast and then needs an airlift off, at the highest end. MRT Leader to judge. Maybe the risk of a fine would make the really ill prepared think twice. I doubt it though.

I think we can safely assume that everyone posting here has climbed Tryfan many times and many of us agree that 'something' should be done. There's been a lot of press recently about the success of the Nudge theory, ie indirect methods of changing behaviour can be more successful than direct legislation (fines for call-outs) or action (painting boulders). If there are any nudge theorists / behavioural economists out there, this would be a fascinating topic for discussion. Fortunately the man who fell was not killed or critically injured, so we are able to discuss an emotive topic without being criticised as mawkish.

We all know that the signs on Ben Nevis don't discourage the trainer / no map brigade. But there have been some recent experiments on the roads aimed at reducing road accidents by stating the number of serious incidents on a particularly dangerous stretch of road over a period of time and it would be helpful to know how successful these have been. Since we Brits don't like signs or painted boulders on our mountains, I wonder if a sign at the bottom of Tryfan which stated something like '33 mountain rescues on Tryfan since Jan 1st 2014. Don't be the next ' might work? This could be followed by a checklist of items explaining what equipment you might need and all the necessary warning notices, plus a large scale map which people could photograph on their smartphones for the numpties who have no map but carry on regardless because it looks so enticing from the roadside?

#donsbodyarmour

Thanks to all for your comments. I know Chris Lloyd well and also know that the OVMRT will take note of all the points made. I am but one of the 3,000 male and female MRT members in England and Wales and there will be around 2999 slightly different versions of all the above debated points. I think the point that has been made above that is perhaps most near to the answer is that the number of accidents is directly proportionate to the number of people on the mountain. Tryfan is a great mountain and close to the road so will always attract the numbers. We will never stop the accidents but I am sure a thorough investigation taking on board all of your contributions will reduce them and prevent that tragedy that we all hope will never happen.

All the best and whatever happens on Tryfan please continue to support your local MRTs as they do need it, especially to keep their better halfs, their friends and their employers supportive.

Richard

If you take the time to read the incident reports on the OVMRO site it becomes quite clear that the majority of the callouts to Tryfan occur when the parties involved make a navigational error and stray onto more difficult terrain than they are comfortable with.

This wouldnt be helped by discreet markers because the casualties lost the path / route in the first place and whilst even the most experienced and well equipped can fall (its the law of averages at some point somebody is going to fall off) its the lost and cragfast who make up the bulk of the rescues.

Surely the answer is to educate those who seek to venture up Tryfan (or any other scramble for that matter) with mantras such as dont scramble up anything you cant climb down, learn to read a map and know how to interpret the features that are applicable to your immediate area, carry a short length of rope and slings and karrabiners to self rescue and if in doubt dont do it.

Im not elitist or Snobby but preparation is key and its not that difficult.

Sorry if my ealier post seemed totally overenthusiastic. My brain is letting me down when I feel alone. I will practice half smiling more. Please understand. It goats me so much. What really can break a fine partnership is loud music early in the morning. Just try to find your path. Get antidepressives. Nobody shold deal with anxiety issues alone. What really can devastate a relationship is loud music early in the morning.

CRF Print has for over two decades, been delivering cutting edge solutions for Invetigator Site Files delivering to the leading Clinical Research Organisations crossing five different continents.

Have summited Tryfan many times in various weather conditions including winter.

Tryfan is considered to be most dangerous mountain in Snowdonia.

The cone top with steep gullies cliffs making for challenging days out but it is a mountain to respect!!!

Philip

Ora Exata din Romania - ora exacta

1) Trail magazine, look no further. For what is ostensibly a walking magazine, it talks glibly of 'Grade 1 scrambles' and Tryfan especially is hyped for it's 'accessible' grade 1 terrain. Absolute nonsense, there is no easy way up Tryfan

2) Scrambling grades. They have been created by climbers but they are mostly used by walkers. Is Tryfan a grade 1.1 or 1.9? How many more people have to fall to their deaths after being lured to precipitous crags by 'easy' grade 1 scrambles like Tryfan and Jack's rake?