There were 14 of us, not 17.

“The group had severely misjudged the length of the route" - Actually we expected to take 12 hours, we took 14. Hardly severe.

Unfortunately panicking relatives on the outside raised the alarm a little early.

Why would a search and rescue helicopter have searched for us if we were lost underground? That makes no sense. It might be called out if we were found injured and moved above ground by the rescue team, but that's it.

So Andy you intended to emerge from the mine after midnight? I think you all should've told your relatives you planned to be underground that long as they only expected you to be 4 hours.....strange how they EXPECTED you to be 4 hours.

The Sea King would've been mobilised as there was a chance you had got lost/injured on your way from your vehicle to the mine or vice versa.

Your 'panicking relatives', or rather your neglect to tell them how long you would be underground, has cost money and risked lives, please make sure you make better plans next time you go out on a trip like this.

14 or 17, does it matter. a missing party is still a missing party regardless of numbers.

Underground or above ground, how do the rescues teams know where you are?
Hence they will use any available methods to locate you, dogs, helicopters, foot searches or what ever is needed until the rescue is complete.

I suggest instead of nit picking at details, you should be THANKING the VOLUNTEERS who got out of bed to attend the call that was made by relatives of your group.
or do you think the rescue teams should stay in bed nice and warm, getting a good nights sleep ready for work the following day? remember these people do not get paid, they have families and jobs like all of us, but when a call comes in they will drop everything to help others.

So regardless of how many people or how many hrs ect ect, a THANK YOU is what you should be saying.

I think you should just be grateful Andy that there are teams of volunteers willing to come out at the drop of a hat to search for missing people, whether over or underground. I'd think that, given the concerns raised by relatives, a proper response was very much needed. In such a hazardous environment I'm sure you wouldn't want or expect anything less. A hearty thanks from the group to the teams involved would be more appropriate.

I have great respect for Mountain Rescue but as Andy says this was a case of panicking relatives... which is why I never tell them what I'm up to.

To be fair we're all sensible and don't take risks we think might kill us, if you're underground for 4 or 24 hours we always make sure we're safe, especially in numbers, the duration is irrespective.

We were all very grateful, but it seems like we've been made out to be a bunch of idiots who didn't have any experience or bother planning ahead whilst blatantly disregarding safety.

In my years at this hobby, this trip was one of the most safety conscious operations I have seen, with every care taken to ensure the groups wellbeing.

Timing proved to be an issue, but unfortunately there was nothing that could be done to rectify this, without rushing the group and potentially causing an accident.

My own relatives were informed that worst case scenario, do not call for help as we already had a contingency plan, this was clearly communicated to all. I suppose to panic is just human nature.

We are very thankful that rescue was on hand if needed, and gladly it was not.

Hi, I'm Bigjobs. I ran this trip.

I'm only really commenting here to thank Mark Grantham and the other members of cave/mountain rescue teams up and down the country for volunteering their time like this. I'd agree that it was a proper response given the amount of information they had.

Ironically, the 4 hour expectation was actually 7, from a relative of someone that didn't want them to worry about the amount of time they were due to spend under there.

I thought the trip would take about 12 hours, we took ~14-15.

Everyone got out OK, no-one was injured, everything was done safely.

I'd just like to add that, having re-read my comments, I'd like to apologise if it seems like I dont value or respect the volunteer rescue teams. This is not the case, I just did not initially think from their perspective when making my comment.

This article caught me on the back heel and I was a little quick to jump to a defensive argument.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who is willing to risk their own life to search for someone who is unfortunate enough to require it.

Thank you

as a caver when we go underground we always leave a callout time. We judge how long we think the trip should last and add a bit. I would expect that if we had not reported back by the said time for the callout to be made, no exceptions.
maybe in this case had the callout time been set for 15 hours then all would have been ok.
to not leave an eto is bad practice, rescue teams would much rather find uninjured people who have misjudged times than have to deal with a real emrgency. and croeser trip does have issues of stabilty, so leaving a callout time would be very advisable to anyone entering the mine.

I've been a caver for over 20 years and appreciate how difficult it can be to give an accurate estimate of how long a trip will take, especially with bigger groups.
A trip like this, with people of varied ability, has all kinds of potential for unexpected surprises and other variables that can significantly lengthen the time it takes to do it.
It seems the trip was carried out safely and everyone returned unharmed, which is a commendable thing.

Big respect to the rescue organisations who mobilised late on a Sunday night. Everyone involved in this sport appreciates the work they do and we should all support them as much as we can.

It's good to know that, if the worst happens, we have groups of highly skilled volunteers who are prepared to give up their time to help.

Andy, I believe your first comment was important. I know you respect and appreciate the volunteers, we all do, and some of us have volunteered at times. But modern journalists have a habit of sensationalising every little detail they can, to stamp this out anf represent the facts is far more important than any money spent on rescue, or the feelings of said rescuers.
This said if people weren't so petty on the forums there would be a greater sense of clarity about what it is we do and having reliable surface contacts would not be such an issue. Someone should start a campaign to stamp the willy waiving out of urbex, that I could support!

Andy, Bigjobs.

Firstly as one who was awoken at 00:45 by the initial CRO call - as were the wife, kids etc. And then spent the next couple of hours sitting in my landy, by our local CRO store (Mold) ready to come over, let me just say that the thanks and appreciation on your part are, well, appreciated! Really, it means a lot - I know most people in our community of like-minded individuals would do the same to help each other out so in all honesty its no biggie.

I've done the CRTT several times myself, and have led people of different abilities through the trip.

All that said, and obviously hindsight is easy. Consideration of the ratios of experienced/inexperienced people, the ability to prussic back out the way they went in if required etc should/would have been something to be considered. Each person having the proper equipment would be another, harnesses, helmets etc. I'm not saying you did, or that you didn't. The truth is i don't know.

Having the ability to belay/saffety line everyone down if they aren't capable of descending themselves is fine of course - but what if you have to retreat?

Having the necessary gear for a z rig to self rescue group members etc is great, I assume thats what you suggested but of course a call out time should always be given in addition.

On this occasion time got away, it happens often enough. People with the best interests at heart made the decision to make the call. Thats fair enough. Its embarrassing, i've raced the clock myself plenty of times before now to avoid the same. It happens, we all understand that.

What really matters is that when anything like this does happen, the 'community' as a whole learns from it and spreads and applies that learning. Irregardless of what type of explorer we classify ourselves as, the last thing anyone wants is bad press - its not good at any level!

From this CRO member, your situation is 'understood' - dunno if the missus has forgiven you though and my 1 year old missed her swimming lesson this morning too because we all just crashed out this morning so you might have to buy her a lollipop if you meet her!

Glad everyone out safe and sound. :-)

All I will say is well done to CRT and MRT for crawling out of bed at an ungodly hour. I caved actively for 3 years, making over 50 trips up to 10 hours underground including lots of SRT.

Setting a callout is interesting. I would never go underground without one, but my mum says she will never forgive me for the stress she went through waiting for my "I'm fine" call. If I set it with other caving friends they would be chilled about it.

As someone who works in the outdoors with groups and having taken groups caving, I am sure high numbers would be difficult underground.

CRTT is definitely not a trip suitable for people who had never been underground before. To complete the trip in safety, EVERYONE needs to be comfortable with all aspects of SRT. I noticed from your forum that some people attending the trip didn't even know what equipment they needed!!!

You cannot deny that this is a very careless approach to mine exploring, and I certainly hope that you learn from your mistakes.

I too was called out, as a medic with the ambulance service. We had lots of resources diverted to this incident which no doubt had an effect on people who genuinely needed our help. We are already stretched to breaking point and cannot afford to be involved in avoidable incidents like this.

I too am a very keen mine explorer, and anyone who doesn't tell a responsible person where they're going and what time to dial 999 is (sorry to put it so bluntly) a complete idiot and shouldn't be going any where near abandoned mines.

rant over.

I'm impressed with how diplomatic the CRO comments are!

The CRTT is definitely not suitable for novices. It's a trip for experienced cavers who are competent at SRT. And plenty of experienced cavers avoid this trip because they are intimidated by the hazards.

In an attempt not to sound completely miserable, I will admit the trip is less fearsome than reputation suggests. And it is great fun -- zip wires! Collapsed bridges! Abseiling into a canoe!

But you have a duty of care. Taking complete beginners there is irresponsible. Beginners cannot assess the risks and make an informed decision. Beginners lack the skills (e.g. SRT) and experience to help manage the risk.

Thankfully no one was hurt, and you weren't in Yorkshire so you got off without a major bollocking from the CRO. ;-)

Hi TW,

I definitely appreciate the fact that there are people who are willing to put their life in danger to help other people. Thanks a lot for your time and effort that went into this. I've started a thread on the forum to get some donations together as a way of saying thanks for your effort.

If I ever meet you, I'll happily provide a bag of lollipops for little TW :D

As for safety, I'm well aware that the unexpected can and often does happen whilst underground, and while we tried to take kit that would alleviate anything that might have come up, in the end, we were lucky enough that nothing serious happened.

Everyone had the appropriate kit, and belays were used on the descents. I went down on a separate rope clipped in to the people that had no experience/were too scared to do it alone. This is what ate up most of our time tbh.

The traverse had a rope set up to help in getting round the second part for those that needed it.

The cross over zip line had someone at the start to clip them in, I was hanging in my harness in the middle to make sure they swapped over correctly, and there was someone at the other end to clip them out.

For the descent into the boat, everyone was sent down on a 3/1 pulley belay, with life preservers on just in case. I was in the boat to guide them in, and took them to the exit 2 at a time. Getting up the small ascent after the boat was done on another 3/1 pulley, with them using a hand jammer and foot loop to assist the people pulling them up.

We had enough kit & experience to evacuate someone back out up the ropes should we have needed it, whilst sending 3 people ahead to alert the emergency services of our impending arrival at the adit.

However, there are definitely lessons to be learned from this trip, and you can be reassured that I'll be learning them well.

----------

Another angry voice,

I'm not sure I can respond to your post, as I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. We did have someone that was waiting for our exit, with instructions to call the relevant authorities if we didn't call by then. We were not out in time, and they did. The panicking relative was a separate thing all together. I can understand your confusion, as it seems you're getting information from this report, which is wrong in some relevant points.

Following various postings on this I thought it would be useful to clarify the involvement of NWCRO (North Wales Cave Rescue Organisation) in the recent call-out to the Croesor-Rhosydd area.

NWCRO was contacted by North Wales Police (NWP) in the early hours of Monday 11th November asking the team to assist Aberglaslyn Mountain Rescue Team (AMRT) with a search for a possible overdue party of walkers / photographers who may have gone underground in the Croesor-Rhosydd mine system. The initial information provided did not indicate that the party had been attempting the CCRT and there was only a possibility they may have gone underground.

The full NWCRO team was put on standby at 00.53 with further advice being provided at 01.27 to take no further action other than get kit ready.

At 02.43 the overdue party was reported as being well and safe and the NWCRO team, along with AMRT, SARDA and South Snowdonia MRT, was stood down.

We understand that NWP and team members from AMRT undertook a search of the car park; there was no wider search required. The NWCRO team was stood down before deploying any team members to the area.

Kat Hawkins
NWCRO Secretary

Bigjobs,

To me your entire approach was wrong. Take beginners on trips they can cope with and build their experience steadily, let them develop competence as they explore. It's all new to them, you don't need to scare the hell out of them.

I've taken many beginners underground and never had to resort to 3:1 rigs.

If you'd taken fourteen people down there with two or three beginners who had at least a few easy vertical trips under their belt you wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think you should stop defending your actions and admit the only lesson you need to learn is "Don't do it again!".

To anyone reading this who wants to go caving, it's cheap, exciting, hugely rewarding and easy to get into. The BCA Try Caving web site is a good place to start, find a reputable club and stay safe.

I'm glad there are so many cavers out there who love it!

I went pot-holing a few times at school and I must say it's not for me. I think it's the claustrophobic feeling and there was a constant niggle about what if it starts raining very hard.

Only caves for me these days have lights, steps and guides.

Still, it's good that there wasn't a serious situation in the end and everyone is alive and well to tell the grandkids of the day they had to be rescued from a car park.

The mother says "go to the plough for a pint next sunday instead"

love ange